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Author Topic: 1x08, "Refining Fire"  (Read 97231 times)
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syaldia
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« Reply #720 on: June 01, 2008, 04:33:29 pm »

FWIW, you have sealed in stone that "the book is way better than the movie", because no actor will ever be able to emote everything your words carried to us. Your kung fu is indeed mighty *bows to Elizabeth and Emma*

Seconded

Agreed

I know I already commented on lj, but... I can't think of anything to say other than 'wow.' I ended up needing to drink and curl up with my partner last night after finishing that. I also checked here long enough to find out for sure that Chaz was not dead, and saw the comments about the easter egg.

I'll be glad to see the extras that are coming up, and the DVD option.
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CJ
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« Reply #721 on: June 01, 2008, 04:39:09 pm »

I know I already commented on lj, but... I can't think of anything to say other than 'wow.' I ended up needing to drink and curl up with my partner last night after finishing that. I also checked here long enough to find out for sure that Chaz was not dead, and saw the comments about the easter egg.

I'll be glad to see the extras that are coming up, and the DVD option.

If you're not reading the LJs, I recommend them.  Both as back reading, and because I think we may get more bits and pieces (carefully written for LJ, of course) of Chaz's recovery and/or Wabbit and Harpy's reactions on the LJs. 

I'm looking forward to hearing about more weekend adventures when they all go off rock climbing again!  I know he's got a long recovery, but I'm betting he will recover faster than an alpha would, at least physically.  And for Chaz, doing stuff like that will help a lot in the mental/emotional recovery, too.  Both as catharsis and as a confirmation that he -can- get better.
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"We all ended up somewhere with our various uncertain lives flapping about us in tatters and our pockets full of foreign coins."
K. E. Gordon - The Transitive Vampire: A Handbook of Grammar for the Eager, the Innocent and the Doomed
Jaime
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« Reply #722 on: June 01, 2008, 04:40:17 pm »


I think the most terrifying moment for me is when Chaz doesn't respond in the ambulance. Because my logic-brain never thought they'd let him die.

You know...I never thought that, logically or emotionally. I was fully prepared for Chaz or any member of the team to die. I figured that if the story arc--now or in the future--needed Chaz to die, he was gone. Even as I sat there totally devastated by what I was reading I wasn't counting on a happy ending.

And I think in a lot of ways that made reading all the the things Chaz suffered worse, because I had no illusions the authors  had to keep him alive.

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syaldia
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« Reply #723 on: June 01, 2008, 04:45:26 pm »

If you're not reading the LJs, I recommend them.  Both as back reading, and because I think we may get more bits and pieces (carefully written for LJ, of course) of Chaz's recovery and/or Wabbit and Harpy's reactions on the LJs. 

I'm looking forward to hearing about more weekend adventures when they all go off rock climbing again!  I know he's got a long recovery, but I'm betting he will recover faster than an alpha would, at least physically.  And for Chaz, doing stuff like that will help a lot in the mental/emotional recovery, too.  Both as catharsis and as a confirmation that he -can- get better.

Yeah, I found those because of the finale. The funniest part of that was checking their info pages and noticing some of my friends were reading as well, made it easy to know who to complain to about the wait until the next part went up. And then there's Chaz's recipes.
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tereshkova2001
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« Reply #724 on: June 01, 2008, 05:42:20 pm »

Wow. Just wow.

The wings--that's an image I've daydreamed about for years, so it struck home hard.

And like everyone else's, my heart shattered at "On belay? "Belay on." and the translations.

I didn't catch the book of Job reference the first time, or rather, it snagged my attention but didn't pop up any context. That line is quoted in the play JB, which is where I heard it. Reyes is off to test people to destruction, just as Zuss and Nickles (the God and Satan characters in that play) do. And JB, refusing to yield to either God or Satan, makes his choice: "Neither the yes in ignorance, the no in spite. Neither of them!"
I wonder what Chaz will say to Reyes, what choice he will make?
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Jenett
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« Reply #725 on: June 01, 2008, 05:54:29 pm »

(Delurking. Hi, all I know, and those I don't yet.)

Have been chewing over since reading the end (except, of course, the story continues), and reading this thread (couldn't read while in progress. I kept getting crossed wires.)

On Reyes:

Rereading Day 7, something caught my eye: it's two sentences, just after the fuel tanker and the team meeting up.

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"Fuel tanker truck," she said. "Villette got to the driver."
"Son of a bitch," Reyes said in a strange, mild voice.

There's something in there that makes me wonder if what broke Reyes was a very particular kind of manipulation with a particular kind of damage (and fallout for innocent bystanders).

(I've got a very specific obsession with people not messing with the inside of my head, and about memory. Which, fortunately, is not terribly possible for most people, but it's a recurring theme thing. Every so often, Reyes picks up those echoes for me, though I'm going to have to go through the season and see how much of this theory is out of thin air.)
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Cal
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« Reply #726 on: June 01, 2008, 06:02:56 pm »

Okay, late to the party, I know (blame lack of time and Internet connection). 

I'm still processing, mostly.  That was...powerful, to say the least.  Stunning writing.  I do think there are some ethical implications of the way that this story, told in this particular fashion, intersects with the way LJ community functions that need to be unpacked (not a criticism--it's just interesting, especially as an effect you may not have been intending).

That said, on to the reactions I do have.

Reyes: Okay, I do actually understand why you did what you did.  That does not mean you get a free pass.  There is ethical ground that you will never be able to make up, and I do not respect you right now.

Falkner: You may very well be a deity of some sort.  Certainly you could not be a better person than you are.

Todd: I heart you.  You are a good person. 

Brady: Nice to see you wake up to a few things.  You can stick around.

Lau:  Shut.  The Frell.  Up.

Worth: You will be Falkner one day, in your own way.  You're already on the road.

Hafidha: Still love you.  Just because.

Chaz:  Oh, frell, so many things are the wrong thing to say...  My dear, you couldn't go gamma if you tried.  You don't need to be afraid of yourself. 

My current theory: betas can't go gamma.  They're intrinsically positive manifestations of the Anomaly.  Reyes has missed it because he's obsessed (understandably) with the more visible, negative side, and he's pulled the others along in his wake.

Not just William doing people psychological damage, there.
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"You can't afford to be stupid.  There are crocodiles."  --Lynda Day.
Mattador
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« Reply #727 on: June 01, 2008, 06:19:30 pm »


Point of order: Auctorial viewpoint on Reyes is probably a good deal more sympathetic than fan viewpoint, at this juncture.

Actually, I take that back. There's no probably about it.

Fan viewpoint in general, maybe.  I'm still very much on Dad's side; even though I think he made a grievous error in judgement.
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Jenavira
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« Reply #728 on: June 01, 2008, 07:28:24 pm »

I'm not saying I didn't sleep last night because of Shadow Unit. Just that when I woke up every twenty minutes because I haven't adjusted yet to the sudden onset of summer, I was always thinking about the same thing. Goddamn. I think this broke me. Actually, I thought it broke me before, but then there were LJ comments and I'm broken all over again.

So I spent my downtime at work rereading the first half of the season. Piles of over-obsessive fan analysis, here I come!
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AmandaL
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« Reply #729 on: June 01, 2008, 08:57:10 pm »

Holy CRAP.

I just finished the whole episode and HOLY CRAP.  I was away camping all weekend, and missed the last two days.  I'm barely coherent so I'm going to have to start reading the whole thing in a few days when my brain is back to (what passes for) normal.

HOLY CRAP.

(Chazzy, I love you! Get better soon!)
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yasaman
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« Reply #730 on: June 01, 2008, 10:09:10 pm »

Been reading SU from the start, and finally have the time and wherewithal to dive into discussion, and I just have to say...wow. This finale had me on the edge of my seat and going crazy to find out what would happen to Chaz. Still, at least it wasn't the TV model of waiting a week for new episodes for the finale.

As a bunch of other people mentioned upthread, what really gave the finale a lot of its impact for me was all of the easter eggs and the livejournals. It's hard to remember Chaz is a fictional character when I read his LJ posts, enjoy his recipes, and see him interact with his friends on LJ. As invested as I've been in other characters, none of them have been on quite this level. It was honestly hard to read about Chaz getting tortured by the Relative, and I was desperately worried for his safety throughout. I was shaking while reading the last installment, and probably missed a lot of stuff I was reading so fast. So good job authors for making a totally immersive fictional experience! And, y'know, leaving a bunch of fans as nervous quivering wrecks, heh.
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bessemerprocess
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« Reply #731 on: June 01, 2008, 10:13:47 pm »

I think I just broke me brain trying to explain to the boy that everything was better because a fictional person made a comment in a rl person's lj so that I knew a different fictional person from a fanfic about a tv show that doesn't exist that I was reading would be okay.

It could only get linguistically twisty-er if the author's start crossing over with Dr. Who. (Time loops are not a linguist's best friend.)
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Ailis
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« Reply #732 on: June 01, 2008, 10:57:47 pm »


Oh, never fear. I know where that quote goes. And we'll get there eventually. *g*

 Angry Bear, you are made of evil and tease.  (as well as awesome, of course....)
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MadGastronomer
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« Reply #733 on: June 02, 2008, 12:34:14 am »

I had to work last night, and was there when the last chapter went live.  It was killing me, but it was a fairly busy night, and I had a side project to do, so reading it in chunks on my AOP was out of the question.  Finally, though, I couldn't stand it, and I do what I never do, and flipped to the end to make sure that Chaz made it out alive.
Having made certain, I finished work and headed for the club for some rare playtime.  Lots of fun was had by all, and then I had to stop at home to put the dog to bed before heading further north to the Boy's house for the night.
And I couldn't help it, I sat down and started reading.
And had to stop when William cut Chaz.  And I had to come back today and finish it.
I laughed, I cried, I closed my eyes and shuddered uncontrollably, I retched a little, I fell down.  It was good.
Also completely evil.
Thanks, you guys, for a fabulous season and a perfect finale.
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Bunny M
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« Reply #734 on: June 02, 2008, 03:55:44 am »

Okay, late to the party, I know (blame lack of time and Internet connection). 

I'm still processing, mostly.  That was...powerful, to say the least.  Stunning writing.  I do think there are some ethical implications of the way that this story, told in this particular fashion, intersects with the way LJ community functions that need to be unpacked (not a criticism--it's just interesting, especially as an effect you may not have been intending).

I think there could be some very interesting analysis of the interactions of episodes/LJs/writers/readers in this one. But unless there is already an academic Delta with interests in the right part of academia, I'm not sure they'd be getting the gestalt. Because the finale was a gestalt of the prior episodes, the teasers, the LJs, the fora, and the way it was episodic over the week, in very near real-time to the unfolding of the story itself. And that was a once-off. The experience of reading it now is not at all the same as reading it over the week in small pieces.

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That said, on to the reactions I do have.

Reyes: Okay, I do actually understand why you did what you did.  That does not mean you get a free pass.  There is ethical ground that you will never be able to make up, and I do not respect you right now.

Totally with you on this one. Understand, but do not condone. And, as I said earlier: Be very afraid of what Hafs will do to you when she finds out, Doctor. Because she will find out, and she will make you pay.

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Falkner: You may very well be a deity of some sort.  Certainly you could not be a better person than you are.

I dunno about deity, but she is truly worthy of being the team's mother figure. Or anyone's mother figure. She definitely takes up all of the slack left by Reyes in the parental care department. And then some.

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Todd: I heart you.  You are a good person.

Not nearly far enough, IMO. Todd is a bona-fide, all too rare hero, as becomes clear in this episode. Running to place himself between Chaz and the cops, rescuing the civilian from the tanker crash, and still having enough presence of mind to talk Falkner down gently while still doing it quickly enough to clear the area prior to the tanks going boom. The bit that really nailed it for me? The way he calculated how long he had to rescue that woman from the tanker crash. Not if he could do it, but how long he had to do so. And doing it so... casually? Automatically, purely because it was The Right Thing To Do. In my dreams, I could one day be half the man that Sol Todd is. 

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Brady: Nice to see you wake up to a few things.  You can stick around.


Not quite getting what you mean on this one.

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Lau:  Shut.  The Frell.  Up.

Ok, totally not getting you on this.

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Worth: You will be Falkner one day, in your own way.  You're already on the road.

Agreed. A worthy successor. Pun not at all intended.

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Hafidha: Still love you.  Just because.

Hafs didn't get a lot of screentime this episode, but what little she got, as usual, really packed a punch.

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Chaz:  Oh, frell, so many things are the wrong thing to say...  My dear, you couldn't go gamma if you tried.  You don't need to be afraid of yourself.

I definitely agree that he doesn't need to be as afraid of himself/as hard on himself. But if he had gone gamma, it wouldn't have been him doing it, so much as succumbing to The Relative. And there wasn't much chance of that happening, as provably Chaz would rather die (horribly!!) than do that.   

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My current theory: betas can't go gamma.  They're intrinsically positive manifestations of the Anomaly.  Reyes has missed it because he's obsessed (understandably) with the more visible, negative side, and he's pulled the others along in his wake.

Intrinsically different/opposite, I can agree with, but I'm not sure that betas/gammas fit so neatly into a positive/negative dichotomy. I think it's more complex than that, still.

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Not just William doing people psychological damage, there.

No indeed. Not just The Relative, but also Reyes. And, I think, that might be a big part of why I'm so angry at him.

Not to pick on you, Cal, your post just gave me the right 'ground' to bounce off of.

I'm gonna be processing this one for a long while yet, I'm sure.
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*watches his life get devoured like Dread Cthulhu snacking on a yacht*

Snacking, folks, snacking. I don't know where you got any other ideas, and frankly I'm not sure I want to know =)
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