Boundaries

[Triffid Breeder]

So, American darleks would say ASSIMILATE! rather than EXTERMINATE! would they?   

[Elizabeth Bear]

Melting pot, baby.

[Korvar]

America == The Borg?

[jimsmyth]

America == The Borg?

Culturally?  We could make a pretty good case for it. 

[totalxindecision]

I have been trying, actually. Alas, the manners got programmed into me pretty hard, and so far every way I've been able to say it has been something that mans something else entirely in her language, as far as I can tell. The quickest workaround I've found for saying things bluntly and getting them past the internal censor is to get really irritated about whatever it is. As you can see, I'm working on that now.

Yes.

As a native Southern Californian married to a native New Yorker, I deal with this fairly often. My husband tends to be brusque with people who aren't expecting it, i.e. the guy behind the counter at Blockbuster. My solution has been to lovingly say "put the fucking New York away, please." He gets it, apologizes and tries to remember what state he is in the next time we go there.

When we go back east I'm on my own. 

[DavidG]

I was walking along the street the other day and the guy coming in the opposite direction saw my crutches and demanded "What have you done to yourself?" [snip]

Now, that's interesting. I wouldn't do that to a random stranger on the street, but I've done it from both sides of a cash register, when you're already interacting with the other person. The expected exchange is: query - short response - expression of sympathy - drop subject. Would you perceive being asked such a question differently under those circumstances?

(Sorry for the delay in replying, missed the post while I was down with a cold)

You're asking for details of my medical history, which most people consider pretty private and the last thing I want is sympathy, I'm trying to get people to regard disability as normal and not a negative.

DWG's simple guide to disability etiquette: if you can't change 'disabled' to 'Afro-American', 'Moslem' or 'Gay' in a description of the behaviour, then it's not a good idea to try it -- 'I'm so sorry you're Gay/Afro-American/Moslem' isn't going to cut it, so 'Sorry you're disabled' is out too.

I've suggested 'So how's your grandma's sex life?' as an appropriate question for disabled people wanting to reverse the situation on someone and make them realise how intrusive they're being.

[stardreamer]

I was walking along the street the other day and the guy coming in the opposite direction saw my crutches and demanded "What have you done to yourself?" [snip]

Now, that's interesting. I wouldn't do that to a random stranger on the street, but I've done it from both sides of a cash register, when you're already interacting with the other person. The expected exchange is: query - short response - expression of sympathy - drop subject. Would you perceive being asked such a question differently under those circumstances?

You're asking for details of my medical history, which most people consider pretty private and the last thing I want is sympathy, I'm trying to get people to regard disability as normal and not a negative.

DWG's simple guide to disability etiquette: if you can't change 'disabled' to 'Afro-American', 'Moslem' or 'Gay' in a description of the behaviour, then it's not a good idea to try it -- 'I'm so sorry you're Gay/Afro-American/Moslem' isn't going to cut it, so 'Sorry you're disabled' is out too.

Ah, sorry, I somehow missed noting that it was a permanent disability. When I've mentioned something like that, it's been in the context of the person having a cast, or noticeable bandages, or some other mark of a temporary difficulty. No, I wouldn't ask such a question of a random stranger who just needs crutches; as you rightly note, that's none of my business.

[DavidG]

No, I wouldn't ask such a question of a random stranger who just needs crutches; as you rightly note, that's none of my business.

Unfortunately there are a lot of other people out there who do and it gets old really fast! It's frequently mentioned as one of the reasons for buying colourful crutches -- trying to give people a hint that no, we haven't just sprained an ankle. Unfortunately a lot of people still don't take the hint.

[eschatonic]

I was walking along the street the other day and the guy coming in the opposite direction saw my crutches and demanded "What have you done to yourself?" [snip]

Now, that's interesting. I wouldn't do that to a random stranger on the street, but I've done it from both sides of a cash register, when you're already interacting with the other person. The expected exchange is: query - short response - expression of sympathy - drop subject. Would you perceive being asked such a question differently under those circumstances?

You're asking for details of my medical history, which most people consider pretty private and the last thing I want is sympathy, I'm trying to get people to regard disability as normal and not a negative.

DWG's simple guide to disability etiquette: if you can't change 'disabled' to 'Afro-American', 'Moslem' or 'Gay' in a description of the behaviour, then it's not a good idea to try it -- 'I'm so sorry you're Gay/Afro-American/Moslem' isn't going to cut it, so 'Sorry you're disabled' is out too.

Ah, sorry, I somehow missed noting that it was a permanent disability. When I've mentioned something like that, it's been in the context of the person having a cast, or noticeable bandages, or some other mark of a temporary difficulty. No, I wouldn't ask such a question of a random stranger who just needs crutches; as you rightly note, that's none of my business.

This.  But if I met you more than a few times, as friends, I'd ask eventually.  Mainly for practical reasons:  if you've had this problem for more than a few years (or all your life), you don't need help and I shouldn't offer, and you'll ask if you need something.  But if it's a recent development, you're probably still adjusting, and I should be a little more thoughtful. You know?  Like if you were born with only one leg, you already know how to manage stairs and grocery bags and revolving doors and so on, but if you just lost your leg in an accident six months ago I should be a little more alert to stuff like how good your balance is and whether the revolving door totally freaks you out or not.

[ArtemisHi]

No, I wouldn't ask such a question of a random stranger who just needs crutches; as you rightly note, that's none of my business.

Unfortunately there are a lot of other people out there who do and it gets old really fast! It's frequently mentioned as one of the reasons for buying colourful crutches -- trying to give people a hint that no, we haven't just sprained an ankle. Unfortunately a lot of people still don't take the hint.

It might also be (and I'm not excusing the rude behavior here, just exploring it) a cultural fascination with something that isn't often discussed. Perhaps it's motivated by a curiosity and desire to explore something foreign to themselves, and outside of their experience. Even given that, there is certainly a boundary to what is appropriate to ask and what isn't, but I think it's more of a healthy thing (societally) if people are feeling comfortable enough to ask you about your disability rather than make assumptions about it. Just a thought...

[MadGastronomer]

It might also be (and I'm not excusing the rude behavior here, just exploring it) a cultural fascination with something that isn't often discussed. Perhaps it's motivated by a curiosity and desire to explore something foreign to themselves, and outside of their experience. Even given that, there is certainly a boundary to what is appropriate to ask and what isn't, but I think it's more of a healthy thing (societally) if people are feeling comfortable enough to ask you about your disability rather than make assumptions about it. Just a thought...

You may or may not have a point (personally, I don't think it usually does come across as comfort with disability), but it places a burden on us as disabled people, and too many people clearly do not know what an appropriate boundary is.

[Elizabeth Bear]

There's also, of course, the issue of personal preference. Some folks with disabilities are perfectly comfortable discussing it, and are interested in doing outreach. Others are not.

Sometimes it's not out of line--it may even be courteous--to offer some assistance in a dangerous or wearying situation.

And sometimes people are trying very hard to find an inoffensive way to navigate a fraught situation. (I am minded of a time when I was introducing two visually impaired friends of mine who did not know each other when we all happened to run into each other in an elevator at a con. Fortunately, when they figured out what was going on, they let me off the hook, because I was floundering.)

Generally, I find the best guidelines about asking questions are, well, not to ask unless invited, but i am a Yankee and would think so.

[MadGastronomer]

I am actually one of those who's generally quite happy to do outreach. But there are really some astoundingly rude and stupid people out there, and I've been hurt and insulted more than once. Possibly the most irritating to me personally was the (culinary school) classmate who, when I mentioned I have bipolar, asked me if I was safe to have knives and started edging away from me. (Which may sound weird to others, but dammit, my knives are important to me.)

But those of us who are willing to do the outreach will generally offer -- we'll tell people they're welcome to ask questions, or we'll give some concise explanations, or whatever. Asking a stranger or new acquaintance without that offer is rude. (Asking a friend may or may not be rude, it depends on circumstances.)

[tylik]

I go pretty seriously back in forth about how much outreach I'm up for. I think there's an inverse correlation with how I'm feeling (which kind of sucks when it means that my spine is falling apart, doing horrible things to my academic work, and really I don't want to talk about it at all.) The rest of the time I have it fairly easy - spine injuries are pretty straightforward in terms of social response, though mine tends to confuse people. Why yes, I'm more fit and more active than most, and really, I don't need someone to carry heavy things for me (well, okay, having one of our wundergrads help me move the chillers was fabulous) and I'm most likely to do myself injury working at the computer or sleeping.

I wonder how much this has shaped my academic teaching (it's been pretty fundamental for my martial teaching). Though this last semester has mostly been all about "No, really mental health issues are like any other health issues and should get just as much respect and accommodation." (Okay, still a tiny bit grumpy from having the professor come to me with "So one student says she is having psychological issues..." while I know perfectly she's saying it, and her psychologist is putting it in writing, and she has a note from the Dean, and I got her to go to him early just so we could get an exam re-take scheduled even though she was really scared of him... but he did the right thing without prompting, and it sounds like he didn't come across as dubious to her.) And "No, really, if you've been diagnosed with a learning disorder, go to student services and arrange for accommodations - don't torture yourself! Yes, you're bright enough that if you flog yourself from here to Sunday you'll generally do pretty well, but you could do great, and with a lot less wear and tear on the psyche!" (I wish I'd gotten serious about asking to take written exams at a computer sooner than the last exam of the last course of my graduate career... and that's just ergo issues, because writing by hand is harder on me than typing, and all my writtens were turning into endurance sports.)

Not to mention "I'm glad you're staying to feel better from your bout of swine flu, but really, we're happy to have you take the test in a couple more days, stay home, rest up, don't share." or "Look, while yes, technically, if you pull almost perfect cores on the next exam you will manage a passing grade, you're already sick and stressed out and it seems like you're setting yourself up. I'm sure if you drop the course and retake it under better circumstances, you'll do great. You don't need to punish yourself with a bad grade just because you're ashamed that you don't take tests well when you're dog sick."

I love teaching. Dealing with our fairly high strung students is sometimes a fun-house mirror experience, though. (I wasn't that bad! ... well, no, actually I was.)

[DavidG]

Perhaps it's motivated by a curiosity and desire to explore something foreign to themselves, and outside of their experience. Even given that, there is certainly a boundary to what is appropriate to ask and what isn't, but I think it's more of a healthy thing (societally) if people are feeling comfortable enough to ask you about your disability rather than make assumptions about it. Just a thought...

The problem is that a lot of people seem to feel an entitlement to information that can be extremely private. I've seen people report being effectively bullied and harrassed because casual acquaintances feel entitled to demand the information and treat it as public property.