Worrying about the Hafs

[Felicia1066]

My partners child would also be my child, in every way that matters. So really, not that different.

As for Daphne and Chaz - I'm actually pretty sure his feelings are a bit more complicated than that, but from Daphne's side? Yeah, I think it's pretty much just "my brother!" Or at least as far as she's aware. If there's anything else/more, it's very deeply buried. (Which to me would suggest that she'd feel even more awkward about being the mother, biological or not, of his child. It would feel sort of like cheating on Tricia.)

[Bunny M]

As far as I can tell, Chaz is not fretting over his decision.  Hafidha, on the other hand, was on the verge of marriage when she converted (hope I have the right verb there).  Hafidha just lost another Boy who was significant to her.  Chaz's decision has the potential to hit her a whole lot harder than it seems to be hitting Chaz himself.

From what I recall, Hafs is pretty much incapable of carrying a pregnancy to term due to the nutritional requirements of the anomaly. Regardless of whether you actually ever planned on having children, being suddenly unable to strikes me as something that would have a long term psychological effect. And having your 'baby brother' deliberately render himself unable to father children would be a recipe for some serious ECR, I'm thinking.

Even if you are in the best possible mental health given you beta-ness, which Hafs is blatantly not at the moment.

As for reading medical records, I'd assume that Hafs is, unless she has specifically promised not to. I'm of the opinion that both Chaz and Daphne are aware of this and are either okay with it or have extracted such a promise. How the rest of the team would feel about it if they realised, I can't really say.

On second thoughts, I think Reyes would definitely have worked out that she can, and is accepting of that, and Sol probably has realised and is likewise okay with it, if only so long as it is never acknowledged overtly. Which with the WTF wouldn't need to be very overt at all. Danny, Lau and Esther? Probably just haven't considered the idea. It's not as if they don't already have plenty to keep their minds occupied.

Which leads me to another, less than wonderful ponder. We've had some insight into what Esther and Danny are thinking of when 'off-duty', but we've seen very little into WW's head.

^{*heads for the Not Worrying bench*}

[Elizabeth Bear]

Which leads me to another, less than wonderful ponder. We've had some insight into what Esther and Danny are thinking of when 'off-duty', but we've seen very little into WW's head.

...it's almost like Bunny is reading the PTB's private emails...

[Bunny M]

Which leads me to another, less than wonderful ponder. We've had some insight into what Esther and Danny are thinking of when 'off-duty', but we've seen very little into WW's head.

...it's almost like Bunny is reading the PTB's private emails...

I just rolled a crit today, is all.  ^*preens*

[Cal]

What I find interesting is all the focus on Chaz's reaction to his decision - sure, he wants kids, but doesn't believe he's a good candidate for father any longer - without regard to how that decision, for that reason, might affect the other known beta, who might just be reading his medical records. 

I tend to the opinion that it's none of Hafs' business, and if she's reading Chaz's medical records then she needs a good hard lesson in manners and ethics quick-smart.  I still haven't got over the sick feeling that hit me when I found out that she'd been reading his private journal entries.

[jeffy]

As for Daphne and Chaz - I'm actually pretty sure his feelings are a bit more complicated than that, but from Daphne's side? Yeah, I think it's pretty much just "my brother!" Or at least as far as she's aware. If there's anything else/more, it's very deeply buried. (Which to me would suggest that she'd feel even more awkward about being the mother, biological or not, of his child. It would feel sort of like cheating on Tricia.)

We do know that Daphne identifies as bisexual. I don't think we have enough info to know whether she and Tricia are strictly monogamous. But attraction can be independent of potential for consumation. I get mostly friend vibes between them, and if Daphne has been referring to Chaz as a brother (which I don't recall, but can't rule out easily), I'm not sure I'd take that as evidence of lack of attraction despite the potential squickiness of the combination. (And Bear questioning the assumption isn't evidence either way, of course.) If someone wants to write some slash, I'll read it.

[Elizabeth Bear]

It doesn't surprise me that Chaz wants kids.  I don't think I ever consciously picked up on it, but my reaction to that part of S&M was more, "oh, of course" than "wait, really?"  And it doesn't surprise me, really, that he'd choose not to have them, now, but it does make me sad.  Vasectomies are reversible, okay, yes, but it's not the biology of it that's important.  It's what it says about Chaz's state of mind.  Vasectomy or no, he's not going to have biological children.  He won't let it happen.

Well, he hit it off with Bekk Falkner like a house on fire, and they're still friends. There's his reaction to the orphaned infant in "Dexterity." He's Preferred Babysitter for the Ng kids next door. There was Lily... unless she was Rose. And there's Chaz's Down The Rabbit Hole post from 2008, where in some alternate weird world he's a junior stats professor with a wife named Alice and a baby. Those are just the off-the-top-of-my-head evidences....

[CJ]

Chaz's Reproductivity - I mentally compare it to a friend of mine who -really- wants kids but also has breast cancer genes in her family and has the gene herself, which she emphatically doesn't want to pass on.  In other words, a really damn hard call to make.  Chaz may have some wonderful things in his genetic background, but he also has some nasty things.  He can't know if the anomaly is genetic (because you can't make that call from one example) but he can certainly not want to take that chance.  It's sad, and it's hard, but it makes sense.

Hafs possibly/probably snooping on Chaz's medical records - Hafs has always had her own set of ethics in terms of what she does with her ability to hack, even before she went wireless.  She's very protective of Chaz but still knows things that would be private from anyone without her ability - we know she read his private LJ entries, and also knew what he did in Las Vegas.  Hafs believes Chaz knew she would read the private LJ entries - we don't know for sure if Chaz had that in mind when he posted them, but it makes sense that he very well could have.  So I'm fairly sure Hafs has no ethical problems with getting into Chaz's medical records.  I think under "ordinary" circumstances, Hafs would have an ECR regarding Chaz having a vasectomy, but given the very dark mental place she's in right now, it could set off or contribute to something far more personal than it would have before.  It would fit somewhere in her conspiracy theory, I think, though I'm not sure where or how.

Daphne & Tricia & kids - If they want to have kids (which we haven't seen anything about either way), part of the question would be who would carry the child/children?  Then how would they get the sperm and would they want a known sperm donor and if so, who?  I've known lesbian couples who want the sperm to come from a friend that one or both of them thinks of as a brother (though he isn't biologically related) and I've known lesbian couples who didn't want a friend like that to be the donor because it felt too much like incest.  So that could go either way with Daphs and Tricia, too. 

Of course, if I were in that position and wanted kids, I'd want Sol to be the donor, but that's me! 

[Felicia1066]

Oh, I'd totally want to have Sol's baby - but then he's not my Crazy Uncle Duke. I thought of Brady mainly because A) we've heard him comment on how he's "never going to have children" and B) when my sister and her wife were choosing the father of their child, they picked a gay male friend of theirs. (He was supposed to be the donor for my sister's bio child as well as my sister-in-law's, but in between there was a little matter of testicular cancer.)

As for Daphne and Tricia:

"It's different when you're married," she said, staring at the freckles of plaster on the ceiling. It was hard to quantify how. The days when she and Ben had lived on takeout and block-and-board furniture in a badly-kept DC apartment were muzzy, worn unreal by too many breakfasts and Sundays and birthday parties between. "Easier. You...draw agreements up between yourselves, and you pay it back when you're there." Do the dishes. Arrange the day trips to museums, lunch in the park with the girls, actively spend time. Let it equal out in the mix of things, like it always did if you trusted each other enough. "Easier and harder in some ways. Especially if you're having children."

Worth's startle of surprise was utterly silent.

"We haven't thought about that," she said, after a moment. Cautious. Still guarded.

"Well," Falkner replied, half-apology, to the dark. "You have time."

I do believe that since this conversation in Sugar, Daphne has thought about it. It may not come up until Season 4 or 5 - provided Daphs and T are both still alive and together at that point - but I think it will be brought up at some point.

[tylik]

I'd gotten the impression that the feelings between Daphne and Chaz were a lot more complicated than just adopted siblingry. At least on Daphne's part (I'm thinking about the climbing extra in particular) but... well, the Chaz is just made for complicated, yes?

The last time I talked to a former girlfriend* she and her girlfriend were talking about having kids, and plan A was for her to have them and to ask her girlfriend's brother if he would donate. (I kind of thought of it as an interesting reinterpretation of the levirate.)

* And dear gods that was too long ago, I really need to write to her.

[Edmund Schweppe]

The more I think about it, the more I'm sure that (a) Chaz didn't tell Hafidha about his vasectomy prior to "Smoke & Mirrors", (b) Hafidha found out about it anyway (when the X12 837 claim record went through), and (c) Hafidha had an ECR when she found out.

The argument for Chaz not telling Hafs beforehand comes from this paragraph in "Smoke & Mirrors":

He'd winked at her and put on his best cheerful voice and answered, Remember to spay or neuter your beta, and made a joke about a hot date with an icepack, and that had been the end of it. Whatever she thought, however much she guessed, she'd just bitten her lip and nodded and--even though he could see she wanted to--she hadn't tried to talk him out of it, which was why she was the person he'd chosen to tell.

The argument for Hafs knowing anyway comes from this bit in "Getaway":

Hafidha had the best "Hello, duh" expression of anyone he knew. "My little brother's back is always covered. Always."

Todd pretended he didn't notice the break in her voice on the last word.

Between covering her little brother's back and any worrying she might still be doing about him being part of a conspiracy, I'm pretty sure she's keeping eyes on anything and everything Chazzian.

I'm still mulling over whether Chaz will tell her about the vasectomy at or about the same time he tells her about the mirror. And I'm not at all sure how she'll take it. But I'm pretty damn sure she knows about the vasectomy.

[tylik]

Y'know, I'm feeling really dense for having not put together Hafs and her conspiracy theories and Hafs and her wealth of sources of information.

Which doesn't mean she's right, exactly, but it does give her a lot more information than the rest of us.

(Though y'know, if we really wanted information, it's not as if LJ is that... No, no, that's just below the belt.)

[DavidG]

Chaz's decision has the potential to hit her a whole lot harder than it seems to be hitting Chaz himself.

That would be an extremely shitty attitude for her to take.

Chaz does have more problems around his position than Hafs, but equally I think it's possible, and even reasonable, for her to read it as a rejection of beta-hood, or at least the suitability of betas for participating in the continuation of the species. Chaz went to Dafs because he knew she wouldn't try to talk him out of it, but the corollorary of that is that he knew Hafs would, because it isn't something she would agree with. Chaz has had a couple of extra shoes dropped on him over the reality of his beta-hood and heredity that don't apply to Hafs, but her whole experience of beta-hood over the last couple of years has been much more positive than that of Chaz. (OTOH her conversion was much more traumatic than his).

I have fewer problems with her checking out his medical records, but admittedly mostly because I think they must have come to some sort of understanding about confidential information, and I feel like if she's told him she won't snoop in that, she won't. But maybe I am expecting too much of them.

I see zero chance of her not running periodic checks on his medical records. She might not have done it pre-Refining Fire, but afterwards there was a long period where Chaz was really not well, and really not willing to talk about it. Combine her mistress of all knowledge abilities with a suffering platypus and she'll have been all over his records on a daily basis. He's visibly better now, so I expect that she'll have reined back the frequency of the checks, but not to the point of eliminating them -- especially if she has any suspicions that he's hiding something, which he is.

[Bunny M]

-- especially if she has any suspicions that he's hiding something, which he is.

Ice is cold, water is wet and Chaz is hiding something.