Empathy

[elyse]

She is without compassion or empathy--fascinated by human bodies and completely uninterested in human beings. She autopsies victims for the SU, reports her findings, and exhibits not one trace of interest in the outcome of any of the cases, except inasmuch as her own findings are correct or incorrect.

I was rereading the agent bios and comparing them to what we have learned over the course of the last 5 episodes, and was struck by this paragraph in Frost's description, which seems about 180 degrees from the behavior she displays in Ballistic.

I think that by the strict definition of empathy as the ability to model other people's minds in her head, she shows signs of being rather good at it in a frightening sort of way.  That tends to rule out the autistic spectrum, I believe.

Of the possibilities mentioned in the bio, that leaves psychopath, sociopath, or space alien. (That last may not be entirely facetious in a world that includes the anomaly).

I think I need to look up the formal difference between a psychopath and a sociopath. It may be important.

[Razorsmile]

Oh, it's a pretty safe bet she isn't autistic in the manner familiar to the layman (i.e. me). Did you see the two or three times she either told or got jokes? It's like she has no sense of humour herself but she knows one when she sees it.

[spsethra5]

I think I need to look up the formal difference between a psychopath and a sociopath. It may be important.

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM IV) classes sociopathy as an "Antisocial Personality Disorders" and psychopathy as "mental illness" and/or "antisocial personality disorder." A friend of mine who is completing her internship to become a psychologist said the same thing...society today uses the terms as if they were separate and have differences that allow a specific diagnosis to be made. They really don't. Here's a link to a site that offers some of the info found in the DSM IV. But click with caution. This thing is right up there with SU for time consumption! 

http://www.behavenet.com/capsules/disorders/antisocialpd.htm

[Elizabeth Bear]

Law enforcement is specific as to a difference between psychopaths and sociopaths.

Psychiatry keeps changing its mind.

[spsethra5]

Law enforcement is specific as to a difference between psychopaths and sociopaths.

Ack. Until my friend discussed it with me, "psychopath" always brought up a mental image of a knife wielding maniac, and "soicopath" brought up political figures. How does law enforcement categorize each?

[Elizabeth Bear]

That's close enough for government work.

As I understand it, the psychiatric establishment keeps redefining its terms. (Really we're talking about diagnostic criteria there, and the way things are listed in the DSM.)

Terminology doesn't change as fast among people who are less interested in diagnosis and treatment, and more interested in predicting the probable behavior of violent offenders. I'm not a member of the law enforcement community, but from context, it seems to me that psychopath gets used as a term to imply sadism, lack of concern for consequences, manipulation, vindictiveness, and a whole complex of related antisocial behavior as seen in sociopaths and borderlines.

Sociopathy is a slightly different complex of antisocial behavior which is not necessarily criminal.

[spsethra5]

Thanks, Bear. And sorry for the errant info, elyse.

[SaintPeter]

The impression that I get of her is that she does not "feel" the way that others do.  She is aware of this and conscious of it's effect on others, so she prefers not to interact with them at all.

Part of her difference in feeling is that she does not feel empathy with the dead - meat is meat.  Moreover, she prefers the company of the dead because they don't judge her.  Not that she particularly cares that she is judged, but she doesn't like to have to deal with other people freaking out.

I do think she can empathize, or at least understand/model what others are feeling, she just doesn't really care about people.  It's not a "doesn't empathize", it's a "can, but doesn't care".

In my personal experience, it can be uncomfortable to be around people who don't "get" you.  If you laugh inappropriately, they can be judgmental or hostile, etc.  For geeks, we can relax when we are around "our people", since they don't judge us.  Frost simply doesn't have a "her people".

[jimsmyth]

For geeks, we can relax when we are around "our people", since they don't judge us.  Frost simply doesn't have a "her people".

As much as I like Frost as a character, I'm kind of glad about that.


And yeah, I think that "can, but doesn't see the point" approach to empathy is spot-on for her.  So much of her interactions strike me as the "which alien universe am I dealing with today?" sort.

Psychologcally, I would classify her as an alien.

[SaintPeter]

Psychologcally, I would classify her as an alien.

The other day I was pondering some crazy Japanese game show and I came to the realization that we probably have little hope of understanding an Alien race, because I can't understand Japanese pop culture at all.  I wonder how Frost would be precieved by other cultures?  Would she be considered odd at all?

[erinya]

She is without compassion or empathy--fascinated by human bodies and completely uninterested in human beings. She autopsies victims for the SU, reports her findings, and exhibits not one trace of interest in the outcome of any of the cases, except inasmuch as her own findings are correct or incorrect.

I was rereading the agent bios and comparing them to what we have learned over the course of the last 5 episodes, and was struck by this paragraph in Frost's description, which seems about 180 degrees from the behavior she displays in Ballistic.

I think that by the strict definition of empathy as the ability to model other people's minds in her head, she shows signs of being rather good at it in a frightening sort of way.  That tends to rule out the autistic spectrum, I believe.

Of the possibilities mentioned in the bio, that leaves psychopath, sociopath, or space alien. (That last may not be entirely facetious in a world that includes the anomaly).

I think I need to look up the formal difference between a psychopath and a sociopath. It may be important.

Empathy is the ability to "feel with" others--i.e. feeling, to some degree, what other people feel.  It's the thing that makes you wince when you see someone else hurt themselves, allows you to be moved by another's grief or joy.  More like putting oneself into the model than just having a model.

Being able to predict others' reactions, or to profile them, does not require empathy, and many sociopaths are quite good at this and can put on a convincing show of imitating empathy when necessary to their manipulations.  I think Frost has intellectual insight into human psychology, but in the sense of a science: observable phenomena from which hypotheses may be drawn.  She is a very good scientist and a precise observer.  This doesn't mean she understands other people in the way you or I might, by putting ourselves in that person's place, any more than I can imagine myself as an electron and intuitively understand atomic physics.

So yeah, sociopath.  Not all sociopaths are criminals, as Bear points out--in fact, psychologists think they're more common than clinical diagnoses would indicate, because they're so good at approximating normal human emotional function.  Some of them become highly successful members of society (as career politicians, perhaps.)  And even the ones who become serial killers are usually such nice, retiring people, such good neighbors...

Basically, it's fortunate for everyone that Frost prefers to investigate the inner workings of human bodies that are already dead.

[MadGastronomer]

The other day I was pondering some crazy Japanese game show and I came to the realization that we probably have little hope of understanding an Alien race, because I can't understand Japanese pop culture at all. 

Hell, I can't understand American pop culture, and I'm American.  (USian, if you prefer.)

[CJ]

Psychologcally, I would classify her as an alien.

The other day I was pondering some crazy Japanese game show and I came to the realization that we probably have little hope of understanding an Alien race, because I can't understand Japanese pop culture at all.  I wonder how Frost would be precieved by other cultures?  Would she be considered odd at all?

Before I went to Japan, I was told that Japan is the closest thing on the planet to being off the planet.  I lived there for two years, and totally agree. 

And after Ballistic, I don't think I know enough about Frost really to make any sort of guess as to how to classify her.  If she's even classifiable. 

[Elizabeth Bear]

I don't think I know enough about Frost really to make any sort of guess as to how to classify her.  If she's even classifiable. 

...Strangely enough, that's kind of how her coworkers feel...

[Cal]

Did you see the two or three times she either told or got jokes? It's like she has no sense of humour herself but she knows one when she sees it.

That sounds exactly right.  And also a scarily acurate description of, um, me...

What interests me in the context of this discussion of empathy and Frost is her visit to Chaz in the hospital, with origami.  Did she visit and take along her hobby because she felt a connection to Chaz, or because it's a rule of social interaction that she's learnt along the lines of answering 'Thank you' with 'You're welcome': when coworker is in hospital with injuries, one must visit and give something to occupy recovery time?  There was no suggestion that she stopped by to ask questions (as per Chaz' fears in 'Refining Fire'), which implies that her motive was not scientific curiosity, at least.