4x02 "Five Autopsies"

[Lioness]

Which brings me back to the supercreepy question that bothered me so much I didn't even notice the transgender pronoun issue* the rest of you are so upset about: did she deliberately not open the window for her mother? Or did she think that was a dream and not realize it wasn't until too late?

That got me too. That REALLY got me.

Here's where my puzzling has led me so far.  She said to Chaz in the extra, earlier, that her father killed her mother.  She also said that the night her mother died is the night she started keeping track of time so carefully. Is that because if she were keeping track of time already, she'd have known her mother was outside too long, long enough to kill her?

Hypervigilance is a PTSD thing. It's useful, says the overwhelmed, overburdened, over-threatened brain -- and so it is, in some important possible life-saving ways at the time. It's the overgrowth, later, of the coping mechanism that gets us, yah?

Frost is a puzzle. She's locked in to her practices, and as various folks have said, those practices are at least in part about keeping everybody else safe.

I don't have a conclusion either.

[miminnehaha]

I admit to obliviousness when it comes to transgendered issues. But as an ignorant reader, I have to say I approached the material just the way Emma explains it. (can I please be like Emma some day?)

As for the pronouns: the medical professionals among my friends agree: alive, they would have referred to the victims as "she" once aware of their preference. Weren't sure about Leslie, as I didn't remember any reference to him living as a woman (does that go without saying if someone is seeking gender reassignment? I wouldn't think so.) Once deceased, however, only the body of a person whose procedures were "complete"* would be referred to as "she".

That said, has there been some confusion? Leslie was a male seeking to become a female. I may be missing even more, but it seems like the name might have given rise to some confusion.

_{*No further surgeries planned. (continuing hormone therapies do not apply.)}

[jimsmyth]

My rule of thumb is to use a person's preferred pronoun, regardless of the degree to which their outsides have caught up with their insides.

That works for me.  Other people, of course, should use whatever rules of thumb work for them.

[miminnehaha]

I've been thinking over Madeline's decision not to open the window for her mother... Leah dropped clues about her mother's drinking. I came to the not-a-conclusion that Father Frost made life so intolerable for both Madeline and her mother that he not only killed her by locking her out, but by making life in the family Frost so miserable that Madeline chose not to save her (damaged) mother from her father's actions when the opportunity arose.

Poor Madeline. She really is a whole lot of passion locked down as irretrievably as Bloody Larry. Reading everyone else's opinions of her makes me think I should  be alarmed by how much she reminds me of myself... damn, that sounds like bragging. But really-- I think calling her autistic or sociopathic is simplifying a complex person. Not that autism or sociopathology are simple. But Madeline strikes me as a brilliant woman, product of an incredibly wrong childhood, who has met up with the capacity for evil that lives at the bottom of our souls (the part of us that can exult at patricide accomplished). She lives with her own genius, her own handicaps, and her own self-imposed shackles.*

I keep reminding myself that Dr Frost exhibits none of the physical manifestations of the "beta" condition. But, gosh... I have to keep reminding myself. We don't have any content-related reason to think Frost is "different" for any reasons other than psychological, do we?

*I am no genius, and my childhood was normal. I'm not autistic (although I never looked anybody but a lover in the eye if I could help it until after college). I've never murdered anyone. But I really could have been just like Madeline...

[miminnehaha]

My rule of thumb is to use a person's preferred pronoun, regardless of the degree to which their outsides have caught up with their insides.

That works for me.  Other people, of course, should use whatever rules of thumb work for them.

Yes, that's it exactly.

The scientists just don't consider your preference once you aren't there anymore. When the insides are all that's left-- and that's what we were mostly talking about, right?* -- then it's the clinical. 

_{*if I missed yet another thing, I'm sorry. Honest.}

[tylik]

The scientists just don't consider your preference once you aren't there anymore. When the insides are all that's left-- and that's what we were mostly talking about, right?* -- then it's the clinical. 

So I have been mostly staying out of this because I haven't had the time or energy to reply to Emma's post. (Leah's I've replied to privately, though I should probably reply publicly as well.)

However...

There is still a lot of ignorance in dealing with transgendered people among physicians. Though basic issues of how to provide reasonable care and not be an asshole are being taught in medical school. (Overall, I should mention that the standard of care isn't that great - not a lot of research going into how to provide better care or do better surgeries for those who choose to go that route.)

But if we're talking scientists? It's going to totally depend on who you talk to and what their background is. "Scientists" are often credited with random and monolithic views, but we're in fact a diverse bunch of fruits and nuts. And "sex", even separated from gender, isn't just about what kind of plumbing you have, or what is going on with your chromosomes. I would tend to refer the decedent by the gender they preferred, myself, as a form of respect, but then, as of yet, I don't have a clinical degree.

(And I work with hermaphroditic sea slugs, fer crying out loud. And I'm a biologist. Sex, in nature, is stranger and more diverse that we often assume.)

A random link I happened to read yesterday does a decent job with some of these issues: http://skepchick.org/2011/12/bilaterally-gynandromorphic-chickens-and-why-im-not-scientifically-male/

I am not particularly surprised or offended that Frost would refer to a pre-op MtF as Male. That seems reasonable from what we know of her.

[Alena]

My rule of thumb is to use a person's preferred pronoun, regardless of the degree to which their outsides have caught up with their insides.

That works for me.  Other people, of course, should use whatever rules of thumb work for them.

Yes, that's it exactly.

The scientists just don't consider your preference once you aren't there anymore. When the insides are all that's left-- and that's what we were mostly talking about, right?* -- then it's the clinical. 

_{*if I missed yet another thing, I'm sorry. Honest.}

I think part of the problem is what pronouns mean.  To someone involved in genderqueer/trans* culture, pronouns represent one's social gender, not their assigned biological sex.  So using the pronouns generally associated with a social gender not chosen by the decedent in their lifetime (i.e. "he" for an MTF decedent, even if she hadn't had surgeries yet) sounds to some people like you (general you) are assuming that since they have X reproductive organs, they must have Y social gender.

...aaand since much of genderqueer/trans* culture is about (re)constructing gender with little or no reference to biological sex, this comes off as a problematic stance.  But to people who aren't so familiar with genderqueer/trans* stuff, it doesn't come off as a "stance" at all, it's just "how things work".

Especially since the episode directly concerns these things, it does make me a little uncomfortable that Reyes especially is using "he".  Leslie has been refused surgery, that is to say, her gender presentation has effectively been policed.  By who?  By medical gatekeepers who've decided she can't pass in society as herself.  She isn't allowed to be herself.  Using he pronouns just digs that knife deeper.

(One wonders, unhappily, if Lau used pronouns while trying to talk Leslie down and if so which ones.)

[will shetterly]

"One wonders, unhappily, if Lau used pronouns while trying to talk Leslie down and if so which ones."a

Negotiators are expected to know the ways different communities refer to themselves, so I think it's safe to assume Lau's take and Frost's are as different as they could be. Moreover, even if knowing these things wasn't part of her job, Lau's a young Angeleno. She grew up assuming your identity is what you declare it to be.

[miminnehaha]

My rule of thumb is to use a person's preferred pronoun, regardless of the degree to which their outsides have caught up with their insides.

That works for me.  Other people, of course, should use whatever rules of thumb work for them.

Yes, that's it exactly.

The scientists just don't consider your preference once you aren't there anymore. When the insides are all that's left-- and that's what we were mostly talking about, right?* -- then it's the clinical. 

_{*if I missed yet another thing, I'm sorry. Honest.}

I think part of the problem is what pronouns mean.  To someone involved in genderqueer/trans* culture, pronouns represent one's social gender, not their assigned biological sex.  So using the pronouns generally associated with a social gender not chosen by the decedent in their lifetime (i.e. "he" for an MTF decedent, even if she hadn't had surgeries yet) sounds to some people like you (general you) are assuming that since they have X reproductive organs, they must have Y social gender.

...aaand since much of genderqueer/trans* culture is about (re)constructing gender with little or no reference to biological sex, this comes off as a problematic stance.  But to people who aren't so familiar with genderqueer/trans* stuff, it doesn't come off as a "stance" at all, it's just "how things work".

Thank you-- that helps.

In life, thinking in terms of social identity. In death, while some are speaking to identity (as the decedents would have preferred or not), others are referring to biological specifications and not intending to imply anything about "identity". Yet, the best of intentions...

That puts it back in the hands of readers to assess characters' motivations and frames of reference. (Which may be what most of you were doing to begin with.) Excellent.

"Scientists" are often credited with random and monolithic views, but we're in fact a diverse bunch of fruits and nuts.

Yes, Will, you're right: I put that badly by saying "scientists" when I meant "scientists dealing with the description of human remains."

**

It's fairly impressive to me on re-reading how Dr Frost avoids pronouns for her bodies here.  She refers to them as the decedent;  there are 'it's sprinkled about, but they seem to refer to the bag, the skull, the body parts, not the person.  She does use pronouns with living persons without much difficulty.  But if she hadn't referred to them as male in the report, you would have no idea what she thought.

I love that you noticed, and think we have an idea that she thought the remains were biologically male, and that she thinks it is important to treat living human beings... respectfully. That seems consistent with what we know of her.

[jimsmyth]

Thinking about it in bits and pieces over the last few days.

One of the dead people in the episode is Worth.  Her lack-of-presence is strongly felt here.

[stardreamer]

A random link I happened to read yesterday does a decent job with some of these issues: http://skepchick.org/2011/12/bilaterally-gynandromorphic-chickens-and-why-im-not-scientifically-male/

Reading that article reminded me strongly of a particular bit of conversation in one of my favorite books. The second speaker is a woman "passing" as a man in the 1830s:

"In France I didn't have to lie every day about what I am."

"Every day I tell the truth about what I am. I merely leave out the one fact -- the one facet of my entirety -- which would, in everyone's eyes, obliterate all the rest."

There's no way to be sure whether that character was FtM in the modern sense, or just a woman who had no interest in a "feminine" lifestyle and was fortunate enough to be physically able to pass. But that bit about the one facet which obliterates everything else in most people's eyes -- that rings very true in the context of modern transgenders. Not to mention anyone, male or female, who wants to pursue a career path traditionally limited to the opposite sex.

[DavidG]

I was upset to see each of the victims referred to as "Male" in the paperwork

* I found myself simultaneously saddened, that our society still does not accommodate transgendered people, and yet convinced that it was an effective way to bring us into the story. The story needs us to recognise all of the issues with acceptance and bureaucracy faced by transgendered people, and I think that harsh label contributes to that aim.

One question left unanswered, at least as far as I can make out, is what it is that sends Frost to Dawa, whose speciality is gastro-intestinal pathology, for a second opinion. There isn't a gastro-intestinal component to the case that we're aware of. The only possibilities I can think of, given the eventual mythology, is that Frost may have spotted something related to metamorphosis - "I'm going to be a butterfly", or that she was even more exercised by the internal origin of the damage than I realised, though Dawa seems the wrong person for the latter.

What fascinated me most about the story, I'm not sure liked is the appropriate word, was the insight into the world of Madeleine Frost. We've known Frost to a degree for a long time, we've seen the terms bandied about, sociopath, autistic, but I think this is the first time I think we've understood that she sees herself as damaged, rather than different:

It was a comforting lie. Madeline Frost was fifty-one years old. It did not get better. You grew older, and more able to deal with the things done to you, the things you'd done.

I can see her point, but it's a terribly bleak outlook.

A voice that was never raised in all the time she could remember except for once, hoarse and feeble, outside a nighttime window

Oh my. And 42 years later she can't abide the sound of branches tapping on window glass and has recurrent nightmares. Just how well is she dealing with the things she's done.

What can I do to assist? she'd asked, and now there was an answer. Her throat went dry, and that still place, that quiet place in her head emerged, gently, guiding her through the next words like a steering hand. "That's a cruel bargain, Agent Reyes," she said.

And the next thing that happens is that Leslie charges the police line? Um.

her fingers tingling with the feel and smell of metal buckles and her head exploding with transformation.

Ulp. That may be the most disconcerting sentence I've read in a long while. And

a reach; a soft click; a yank of the wheel ... brace for impact

Oh, no, this is too good. This is too bright.

I can never do it again.

doesn't help. It was bad enough realising that Frost may have deliberately crashed the car, but to compound it with the certainty that she unbuckled her father's seatbelt. And then to imply....

* Really late in getting to this courtesy of a month in the land of no-net and then getting sucked into a week of hectic political campaigning.

[Korvar]

a reach; a soft click; a yank of the wheel ... brace for impact

Oh, no, this is too good. This is too bright.

I can never do it again.

doesn't help. It was bad enough realising that Frost may have deliberately crashed the car, but to compound it with the certainty that she unbuckled her father's seatbelt. And then to imply....

Totally missed that...

[InkRose]

As did I... *shudder*

The episode itself filled me to the brim with compassion for the agony Frost keeps herself in, and now it's changed a bit. Not lessened, really, but the water in the pool has turned out rather murkier than I first realised, so to speak.

[glinda_w]

her fingers tingling with the feel and smell of metal buckles and her head exploding with transformation.

Oh. I missed "and her head exploding with transformation". Transformation into what??

It was bad enough realising that Frost may have deliberately crashed the car, but to compound it with the certainty that she unbuckled her father's seatbelt. And then to imply....

Totally missed that...

Oh, that part I didn't miss. *shudder* And yet, despite the shudder reaction, it seemed necessary. Like the "Burning Bed" incident, or others where people (mostly women) abused beyond endurance could only act against their abusers when the abusers were asleep, or drunk to unconsciousness. Understandable. Not something I can blame, or judge.

The episode itself filled me to the brim with compassion for the agony Frost keeps herself in, and now it's changed a bit. Not lessened, really, but the water in the pool has turned out rather murkier than I first realised, so to speak.

I'm not sure she can see a way to not be in that agony. Maybe it's self-blame on her part, but I suspect it's more likely that she's such a narrow-focused person that she can't imagine being other than she is. Well, except that she's obviously made the choice to *not* allow herself that feeling of "this is too good. This is too bright."

Just spent 15 minutes searching for the BotMo thread identifying various things (http://botmo.livejournal.com/93094.html), to dig out the name of that large gorgeous flat bead with inclusions that look like crystals of frost on a winter window; it's sagenitic agate. (I know exactly where the *bead* is, it's the name that was eluding me.) And I may have to be making something with it, now. Not sure what or how, yet.