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Author Topic: Refreshment, anyone?  (Read 1894 times)
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Emma Bull
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« on: July 10, 2011, 08:38:10 pm »

Because the new DVD extra is up.  Grin
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saoba
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« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2011, 08:58:57 pm »

Because the new DVD extra is up.  Grin

Ow.

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eschatonic
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« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2011, 09:31:32 pm »

Because the new DVD extra is up.  Grin

Ow.



Quoted for succinctness and completeness. Ow all around.


So.... when you're miserable, and you hurt your body on purpose as a response, what is the distinction (is there one?) between doing it because you deserve to suffer vs doing it because pain on the outside is a distraction that's easier to cope with than pain on the inside?

I ask this as a real question because I suspect somebody here has had the misfortune of finding out firsthand. Seems to me that choice A (You Deserve To Suffer) is, I dunno, more badder? than the other one, because distraction is at least some kind of coping strategy, even though it's a bad one.

I suspect Chaz is doing one of these but I can't tell which one. Maybe both. Maybe he's not sure if he wants to live through this or not.

Also I predict Brady and Nikki will start harassing him about eating in about two weeks, because I think he fell off the wall in the first place because he hadn't eaten enough before he started climbing.
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« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2011, 02:06:57 am »


Also I predict Brady and Nikki will start harassing him about eating in about two weeks, because I think he fell off the wall in the first place because he hadn't eaten enough before he started climbing.


Probably sooner than two weeks, is my bet. Because I think you're right, and it's not really likely he's dealing with food all that well right now. I've been rereading ALL of SU, and the difficulties he had with food after a certain course of medical treatment are fresh in my mind, and yep, grief and her attendants can bring those responses right up.

Poor Chaz.

Well, and damn it, Chaz, .....

Well, what Brady said.

(Which I cannot help hearing as a kind of declaration of love, no matter what Brady thinks of it. Love for teammates is weird. But the "Don't ever make me say all that shit again," line? That was fooking beeyootiful, to quote Heather Wood,  and man, I don't care what Brady said about being the worst sonofabitch; it rings like love when I hear it.)


Really, really, REALLY nicely done, this one. Dayumn. My obscenity and profanity is a measure of my sincere appreciation, I blush to own.
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DavidG
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« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2011, 07:42:41 am »

So.... when you're miserable, and you hurt your body on purpose as a response, what is the distinction (is there one?) between doing it because you deserve to suffer vs doing it because pain on the outside is a distraction that's easier to cope with than pain on the inside?

I ask this as a real question because I suspect somebody here has had the misfortune of finding out firsthand. Seems to me that choice A (You Deserve To Suffer) is, I dunno, more badder? than the other one, because distraction is at least some kind of coping strategy, even though it's a bad one.

Heads up, might be triggery for anyone with cutting issues (but is not a discussion of that).






In terms of physical pain control, distraction is about the most effective technique out there, and I have been known, from time to time, to punch myself, because if nothing else is working, then the pain from that is something else to focus on instead of the primary pain. It helps that intermittent pain is harder to ignore than continuous pain, the body is conditioned to prioritize new phenomena; in my experience it also helps to hurt yourself near the pain - which normally means I'm punching myself in the thigh because my hips are killing me. At best it's an emergency first aid technique for when you have nothing else that works, if it becomes a normal pain management technique, or you're doing it for reasons other than emergency distraction then it has become a problem rather than a solution - which is not to say that it hasn't become that in order to mask an even more difficult problem.

And then there's pushing your body to its limits in order to push thought into the background, which is similar, but not quite the same. Think about running yourself into exhaustion as an escape from a particular problem at home or work, or working yourself to exhaustion in the gym, or swimming, or hiking, or climbing. I'm not 100% sure that Chaz is initially trying to hurt himself when he contemplates the wall, and the absence of the crashpad doesn't tell us, because the crashpad is useless without someone to continuously spot it below him, but he is clearly looking for an escape that will take him to his absolute physical limits, with injury a very real possibility, and very likely he doesn't care as much about the potential for injuryt as he normally would, or maintain the inner focus to realise that he has reached his body's absolute physical limits and that it is about to fail him. And yet we can't look at this like one of us trying to climb that wall, because Stu's testimony makes it clear that Chaz has skills even committed climbers look up to, and because Chaz has a history of compulsive risk taking even when not under severe emotional stress, whether that be BASE jumping, climbing, or just the way he drives. Push the limits once too often and you will fall, no matter how much you want to live.

Turning to the whole of Beta, it's wonderful to see Daphne and Chaz through new eyes, particularly to see someone looking at the way they complemented each other. It reminds us that in many ways Daphne completed Chaz, right from that very first mission where they were the two to run down the gamma, Chaz taking the insane risks - such as shocking himself with the ubertaser in a swimming pool in order to get the gamma, Daphne drawing the insanity back to merely do-or-die. He's missing that other half of himself, and it's difficult to see anyone who can fill that for him with the exception of Hafs. Danny Brady might not let himself progress to self-harm, even inadvertent self-harm, and Mom and Dad will also step in when they realise things are amiss, but none of the others can plug those holes that complete him. Only Hafs can do that. 

Without either of them, Chaz is back to being the permanent outsider, looking out at the world through feral coyote eyes.
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txanne
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« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2011, 09:59:02 am »



Turning to the whole of Beta, it's wonderful to see Daphne and Chaz through new eyes, particularly to see someone looking at the way they complemented each other. It reminds us that in many ways Daphne completed Chaz, right from that very first mission where they were the two to run down the gamma, Chaz taking the insane risks - such as shocking himself with the ubertaser in a swimming pool in order to get the gamma, Daphne drawing the insanity back to merely do-or-die. He's missing that other half of himself, and it's difficult to see anyone who can fill that for him with the exception of Hafs. Danny Brady might not let himself progress to self-harm, even inadvertent self-harm, and Mom and Dad will also step in when they realise things are amiss, but none of the others can plug those holes that complete him. Only Hafs can do that. 

Without either of them, Chaz is back to being the permanent outsider, looking out at the world through feral coyote eyes.

I think that last sentence nails it.
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jimsmyth
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« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2011, 11:16:09 am »

Stu is good people.  Thanks for him.

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tylik
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« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2011, 12:33:23 pm »

Stu is good people.  Thanks for him.

Yes. This.
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tylik
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« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2011, 01:03:01 pm »

So.... when you're miserable, and you hurt your body on purpose as a response, what is the distinction (is there one?) between doing it because you deserve to suffer vs doing it because pain on the outside is a distraction that's easier to cope with than pain on the inside?

So, if this were me, it wouldn't really be about hurting my body. I mean, seriously, I've hurt myself on purpose, and while the impulses have some areas of overlap, they're pretty distinct. (BTW, let me mention, not for the first time, some distress that these boards don't have the equivalent of an lj-cut tag.)

If that were me - I just can't speak for Chaz, and it's a very outside view - I would be throwing myself into that because I was turning my grief into rage because the grief would eat me alive or drown me if I didn't. Not that there wouldn't be plenty of rage there anyway. And I needed to take all that energy and push it in to something, to make something out of it. For me, there's an axiom that very focused physically demanding activities always help. I mean, always, if I can drag myself into it, no matter how much life sucks, that will help.* If it's something that kind of has a sense of poetic propriety in terms of why I'm so upset, all the better. If it's something I would normally approach cautiously, and which I can pull out all the stops and go all out, better yet. And if there's a chance I might get hurt or killed doing it... yeah, that sounds just perfect. I mean, it's not the goal, exactly. (Well, okay, there were times when the thought of throwing myself into it, and doing it as hard as I could until my body failed and hopefully in a way that killed me was pretty darned attractive, but that was quite a while ago, oh my wasted youth.)

Keep in mind, I was not a jock. I usually did something active, but I was bookish computer-y girl geek. (And yeah, I also wrote a lot of angsty poetry.) And I guess I should say that this all refers to earlier mes. Maybe present-me has grown up and gotten better coping skills. Hasn't really been put to the test recently... And I'm not sure it could be, in a really rigorous way. It's not always obvious which calamities are the things that totally destroy you, and which ones suck and you pick up your pack and go on. I mean, Chaz being torn up by Daphne's death isn't exactly a surprise... but in my own life things have not always been so clear cut.

Answering your original question (and while I'm going to be vague in my descriptions, I will be talking about self-harm, and this is where I'd put that lj-cut if I had such a thing), for me the two have taken different forms. I've done things that hurt because I was mad at or ashamed or myself. (Or for any other number of reasons. And that one gets squishy around the edges because in the kind of athletics I enjoy the line between something hurting and something feeling great is often very fine and squiggly. And this is where all of my friends who are into BDSM tend to make fun of me for not being into BDSM, but I am not making that call, either, out of ignorance.)

I'm making a distinction, I guess, between pain and lasting damage.** When I've harmed myself***, which hasn't been for a really long time^, it was because I was in the grip of what I thought was an unresolvable crisis. I would have chewed off my paw - heck, in comparison, that would have been pretty constructive. I would have been happy to think of something as useful as chewing off my paw. (I'm not saying my ability to evaluate my options was very good. Or that I wasn't an emo young thing.) It was more than using pain as a focus, it was the combination of a huge amount of emotional pressure and a sense of being completely trapped.

I don't pretend this description is particularly portable.

* This had been true for me for a long time, but I think it was clearest when I had heard that a good friend of a good friend and former girlfriend had been brutally raped, probably by the same guy who raped me when I was eighteen (this all was a dozen years later) and who for various reasons I hadn't prosecuted. Trying to confirm that it was the same person, my friend sent me a picture. (I'm still not certain, but like, 90% sure.) And then I had to leave for wushu practice. So, I drove across the lake in a gut churning mix of horrible feelings, trained my heart out... and then afterwards, all the neurochemical excess was just kind of gone. I mean, I was mad, I felt guilty, I was remembering some pretty unpleasant times in my own past, but I wasn't gnawed by it, but none of these things felt like they could really touch my balance.
     (And if this explains something about how I took up a very acrobatic martial art as a way to recover from a spine injury, well. Yeah, the first six months were kind of horrible, and I can't exactly recommend it, except the results were pretty stunning.)
** There are few things I've felt as ashamed of as I did of having self inflicted scars. Which was pretty helpful in terms of not doing it again, actually, but extremely unpleasant at the time. I am really, really lucky that I heal scars as well and thoroughly as I do, or I would be a complete mess. (Most of them gained through exuberance and/or stupidity rather than anything so melodramatic, but still a great assortment. I think I have only two scars on my body that are more than ten years old - and even the dreadful bit on my face is almost impossible to see now.)
***And I'm excluding the things that made sense - minor surgery on myself when on the trail doesn't count. Anything involving athletics that wasn't deliberate self-harm doesn't count.
^ And only once as an adult, and a couple other times ever. Though for years, under certain kinds of stress, I'd find myself wanting to, and I hated that. Bah. Hasn't happened for a long time, though possibly becoming not-married was the biggest bit in resolving that. I think every instance as an adult involved the relationship that became my now former marriage.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2011, 01:09:11 pm by tylik » Logged
tylik
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« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2011, 01:32:59 pm »

Oh, and Brady is my hero.
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jimsmyth
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« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2011, 02:43:11 pm »

Oh, and Brady is my hero.

This.
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Elizabeth Bear
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« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2011, 07:22:25 pm »

Oh, and Brady is my hero.

You guys are my heroes.
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« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2011, 07:36:16 pm »

Oh, and Brady is my hero.

You guys are my heroes.

This.

So thankful for the coincidence of Stu. (wait...) Of course the question remains of whether Chaz would have attempted the climb if Stu hadn't offered to spot.

Thanks to dwg and tylik for sharing your relevant experiences. Thanks to all of you for being all insightful and stuff.

I'm experiencing ECR even more now at the thought of August's episode being from earlier in the series. Feels like abandoning the team to their grief.
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tylik
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« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2011, 08:50:04 pm »

So thankful for the coincidence of Stu. (wait...) Of course the question remains of whether Chaz would have attempted the climb if Stu hadn't offered to spot.

My initial response was that of course he would have.

But then I wondered if, if he did, he would have pushed himself so hard. It's not like he has no sense of responsibility. He was probably going to be pushing the limit, one way or another. But Stu being there let him push it hard like that. Which is just another gift Stu gave him.

(I'm thinking, a little, about some of the stupider things K and I have done overland hiking - things neither of us would have done alone.)
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jimsmyth
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« Reply #14 on: July 12, 2011, 12:02:59 pm »

So thankful for the coincidence of Stu. (wait...)


Stu.  That thing we don't believe in?

I believe in Stu.
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"I wanted to tell you both. I've met someone."

"Danny, that's good," his mother said, sounding strange and strained and cautious. "What's--"

"His name's Grayson. He works for the State Department."
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