Reactions to Reactions to The Small Dark Movie Of Your Life

[Lioness]

condolences on the loss of your dad, Nebula.

Condolences from here too.   

Taking a page from my friend Miche, I'm going with "Hard stuff happens? Make tea and offer to share it."  So there's tea and various things-to-go-with on the tea cart here, if you could use some. 

[tylik]

I still miss spiritrover.  And this photo of the beautiful cake still undoes me a little when I look at it:

The human who blogged as spiritrover still misses spiritrover. Though he's gone on to do other cool things, like build cool stuff for the Night Kitchen...

(greatly amused by the overlap in social circles. a member of the spiritrover blog support staff was my housemate back then)

[jennygadget]

This may be a weird comparison, but it reminded me a little bit of how I felt when I got friended on LJ by spiritrover.   I was all totally squee for days and days.  (Yep, technically I had been friended on LJ by some human who was writing an LJ under the name of a piece of hardware that was on the moon. But that's not how it felt.)

I don't think it's weird at all  That's pretty much exactly how I reacted to being followed by Chaz on twitter.

Which, sorry...I am going to maudlin again...

I think the part that also makes this hard for me is that...I do know that Chaz on twitter is not Chaz, it's the PTB.  And so being followed by platypus was like being doubly validated - by him and by them.

Every time I tried to calm myself down by reminding myself that Daphne is fictional, she is just a character, I'd then be faced with the fact that the same people that gave her to me are the ones that are taking her away.  And unlike most fiction, I've also talked with and joked with and was treated kindly by the people that are doing this.  Which I think is part of why I'm reacting badly to the idea that she was taken away simply to prove they could, or to evoke reactions in the team/Chaz, etc.

I think emotional manipulation is a necessary tool for fiction, but the intensity of this experience, combined with the difference in my relationship to the writers is making this hard for me in ways that I'm having trouble describing even to myself, and that I didn't at all expect.  The characters I identify with and why, combined with how I experienced them, plus how exactly they have been hurt this time, plus what my personal hang-ups are - it's all making it very hard for me not just to compartmentalize Reader-Brain vs. Friend-Brain* but also to separate how Daphne's death is affecting me with the desire and need of people that I consider friends (or - if that's being too presumptuous - certainly friends of friends) to tell this story.

That's the part that I think isn't being talked about much.  Maybe because it feels like I'm accusing PTB of something that I don't mean to accuse them of?  Or it could just be that I am simply misreading other people, and they are talking about this and I'm missing it. (edited to say: - or maybe it's just me?)

In any case, I think that it's an important critique of the ways in which they are trying to break that fourth wall, and the limits and consequences of that, both good and bad.

*for the record, despite that being the common parlance here, I don't think that accurately describes how I've experienced SU, but I don't know how else to say it.

[jennygadget]

also - ((((hugs)))) for nebula

tea too, if you want it - but I suspect you have the better tea :p

[Lioness]

This may be a weird comparison, but it reminded me a little bit of how I felt when I got friended on LJ by spiritrover.   I was all totally squee for days and days.  (Yep, technically I had been friended on LJ by some human who was writing an LJ under the name of a piece of hardware that was on the moon. But that's not how it felt.)

I don't think it's weird at all  That's pretty much exactly how I reacted to being followed by Chaz on twitter.

Which, sorry...I am going to maudlin again...

I think the part that also makes this hard for me is that...I do know that Chaz on twitter is not Chaz, it's the PTB.  And so being followed by platypus was like being doubly validated - by him and by them.

That makes a bunch of sense to me.

Every time I tried to calm myself down by reminding myself that Daphne is fictional, she is just a character, I'd then be faced with the fact that the same people that gave her to me are the ones that are taking her away.  And unlike most fiction, I've also talked with and joked with and was treated kindly by the people that are doing this.  Which I think is part of why I'm reacting badly to the idea that she was taken away simply to prove they could, or to evoke reactions in the team/Chaz, etc.

If it helps any at all (and I really REALLY hope it doesn't make things worse), I truly haven't seen anybody here suggesting that the only or even primary reason they took her away was to prove they could.  I understand if you've got a hot button about that due to other fiction that got deep into your heart, but I'm really pretty sure nobody here is arguing that the PTB is doing that, much less that it would be a laudable thing to do.

That said, if you feel that that's what they were trying to do, then I certainly can understand where a level of outrage and a deepening and bittering (is that a word?) of grief might be happening.

It's been hard and frustrating for me to talk about this stuff in the other topic too, because I keep feeling as if I (and some others) am being shoe-horned into the position of "defending" the PTB about something I don't believe they're actually doing, and which nobody on the boards here has, to my knowledge, claimed they are doing or said was a good thing. I can understand fearing that they might be doing that thing, but ... and here's where I run out of words every time I try to write about it.  Or else I find words that don't work, which tend to be things like, "Augh! I don't want to talk about something Some People Out There Somewhere Do But Not Our Authors But We Must Still Talk About How Heinous It Would Be If They Were Doing This Thing That We Don't Really Think They're Doing, because it's started feeling like a straw man argument that is taking us away from talking about what happened To Daphne."

I think emotional manipulation is a necessary tool for fiction, but the intensity of this experience, combined with the difference in my relationship to the writers is making this hard for me in ways that I'm having trouble describing even to myself, and that I didn't at all expect.  The characters I identify with and why, combined with how I experienced them, plus how exactly they have been hurt this time, plus what my personal hang-ups are - it's all making it very hard for me not just to compartmentalize Reader-Brain vs. Friend-Brain* but also to separate how Daphne's death is affecting me with the desire and need of people that I consider friends (or - if that's being too presumptuous - certainly friends of friends) to tell this story.

That's the part that I think isn't being talked about much.  Maybe because it feels like I'm accusing PTB of something that I don't mean to accuse them of?  Or it could just be that I am simply misreading other people, and they are talking about this and I'm missing it. (edited to say: - or maybe it's just me?)

Not talking about how hard it is?

Not talking about how much the members of the team matter to us?  (Or, in another formulation, "Not talking about how powerful and novel the techniques of Shadow Unit are, and how effectively they've gotten the characters intertwined with our real lives?")

Or something else? 

In any case, I think that it's an important critique of the ways in which they are trying to break that fourth wall, and the limits and consequences of that, both good and bad.

*for the record, despite that being the common parlance here, I don't think that accurately describes how I've experienced SU, but I don't know how else to say it.

Yeah, I don't split it up that particular way myself, but then, I've got a long history of Observing In Order To Survive Stuff, with its own peculiar architecture.


(edited to fix boldfacing error)

[jennygadget]

If it helps any at all (and I really REALLY hope it doesn't make things worse), I truly haven't seen anybody here suggesting that the only or even primary reason they took her away was to prove they could.  I understand if you've got a hot button about that due to other fiction that got deep into your heart, but I'm really pretty sure nobody here is arguing that the PTB is doing that, much less that it would be a laudable thing to do.

That it's the primary reason?  I wasn't trying to say that people were, so much as...did I mention I tend to hyperfocus?  That it's one of the reasons.  At least, that's rather how I read the argument that Daphne's death was needed in order to up the ante, because without it the threats in the season finale's lose their power.  And it's definitely been suggested that one of the other reasons she died was so that other characters could be put through the wringer and that's...bugging me in ways I can't articulate right now.

Or something else? 

Yes.  So, I guess I'll attempt this after all...

Losing Daphne felt like a double blow in much the same way that being followed by Chaz on twitter felt like double validation.  I didn't just lose a "friend" I also lost an enjoyable method of interacting with the PTB - quite suddenly.  It was hard from the start to not let this trigger all kinds of reactions that aren't so much about the story per say, but have a lot more to do with my social anxieties, as well as past friendships that were less than healthy for me.

People suggesting that the act that prompted this reaction in me - the death of one of my identification characters - is needed in order to make my other identification character (yes, I have more than one) deal with losing her?I just...gah!  Even if it's only one of many reasons...

This isn't to say that they shouldn't suggest it - it's not even exactly a literary critique of that as a plot device - just that I'm reacting to that by putting my defenses up because I have to work hard at not translating it to mean that's it's necessary for *me* to feel the way that I do.  (see: identification characters)  Or that I should feel thankful for the PTB making me feel this way.  (see: triggers)  Especially when dwg is going on about stepping outside our comfort zones in a way that suggests that my problem is that I want to stay safe and warm with the fluffy bunnies - rather than that I am struggling to stay sane.  And that I am trying to step outside my comfort zones, and now it's harder to do that because Daphne was one of my coping mechanisms dammit!

The way I see, it, we don't just have the layers of web serial, fake tv show, and role-playing - we also have the layer of more transparency between us and the writers than we normally do. (er, than I normally do, in any case)  It's one thing for Suzanne Collins to make me cry for a bit, it's quite another for people I've spent time with to make me feel as badly as have since Tuesday.  Aside from pushing all my buttons in really bad ways, I also think a part of the issue is not just that the fourth wall is often absent, but that sometimes it feels like a game one is playing with friends, and the typical story turns can feel especially capricious and cruel if that's the mode of thinking one is in when they happen.

as always, ymmv

[MadGastronomer]

The human who blogged as spiritrover still misses spiritrover. Though he's gone on to do other cool things, like build cool stuff for the Night Kitchen...

*blinkblink* That was Fish? I had no idea. In that case, a thing built by the human who blogged at spiritrover has appeared in an episode of SU.

[miminnehaha]

The human who blogged as spiritrover still misses spiritrover. Though he's gone on to do other cool things, like build cool stuff for the Night Kitchen...

*blinkblink* That was Fish? I had no idea. In that case, a thing built by the human who blogged at spiritrover has appeared in an episode of SU.

"It's a world of laughter, a world of tears. It's a world of hopes and a world of fears."  Sorry; it fit on so many levels.

[nebula]

Thank you for the kind thoughts and tea. Much appreciated. I'm shaken sometimes by how raw the grief can suddenly feel, months afterwards. But that's grief for you.

However, I didn't bring it up to switch the conversation to me - more to try to articulate that at first I thought I was underreacting, if anything. I didn't feel angry with the PTB and although I felt sad - both at the loss of Daphne and the loss of the interaction with her character - I didn't feel as bereft as other readers have done. And I assume that the other stuff in my life is why. In fact, if anything, Daphne's death being unexpected and unfair is bizarrely alright - that seems to mirror a lot of real life experiences.

But to move back to the thread, I think there is something about the way that SU has encouraged us to participate in the story through our involvement with the characters. That's something I've never experience before in fiction and I've really enjoyed it. Although it did diminish, for me, when cvillette's LJ went away and stopped being used.

[tylik]

*blinkblink* That was Fish? I had no idea. In that case, a thing built by the human who blogged at spiritrover has appeared in an episode of SU.

Yup. This dates back to Gyre days, when they were all working on a zero-G robot*, so who better to write the angsty teenage blog (notice the blurry phone cam icon, and remember how bad phone cams mostly were back then) of another space robot? But spiritrover still comes up in his blog not infrequently.

That's been one of the odder bits of getting to know you first in this forum, prior to the Night Kitchen, and after I left Seattle. Because suddenly you were hanging out with my clan, y'know? And just about the time I get used to that, I meet you in person and there's Michael (who is from a very different part of the extended clan...)

* Which flew on the vomit comet twice! Background for folks that don't have it; they're awesome. Especially considering how fast they had to talk to get NASA not to cut their funding once most of them were done with the U of WA...

[tylik]

It's a world of hopes and a world of fears.

Oh, dear, yes,

[MadGastronomer]

That's been one of the odder bits of getting to know you first in this forum, prior to the Night Kitchen, and after I left Seattle. Because suddenly you were hanging out with my clan, y'know? And just about the time I get used to that, I meet you in person and there's Michael (who is from a very different part of the extended clan...)

You and I were clearly destined* to meet, is all I can say. It does seem to have been a very roundabout of doing it, though, doesn't it?

You know, Michael (he goes by Six now, mostly, for reasons that passeth my understanding) did the NK website, and is currently working on a webseries for which NK will serve as a location. I think one of his characters is going to be working for me, or something. His writing partner has dubbed the place Time Traveler Cheers, which means that I have achieved one of my life's ambitions: I have my very own Callahan's Place.

*For values to destiny which include inevitability, but not preplanning on the part of any particular entity.

[Lioness]

Or something else? 

Yes.  So, I guess I'll attempt this after all...

Losing Daphne felt like a double blow in much the same way that being followed by Chaz on twitter felt like double validation.  I didn't just lose a "friend" I also lost an enjoyable method of interacting with the PTB - quite suddenly.  It was hard from the start to not let this trigger all kinds of reactions that aren't so much about the story per say, but have a lot more to do with my social anxieties, as well as past friendships that were less than healthy for me.

People suggesting that the act that prompted this reaction in me - the death of one of my identification characters - is needed in order to make my other identification character (yes, I have more than one) deal with losing her?I just...gah!  Even if it's only one of many reasons...

This isn't to say that they shouldn't suggest it - it's not even exactly a literary critique of that as a plot device - just that I'm reacting to that by putting my defenses up because I have to work hard at not translating it to mean that's it's necessary for *me* to feel the way that I do.  (see: identification characters)  Or that I should feel thankful for the PTB making me feel this way.  (see: triggers)  Especially when dwg is going on about stepping outside our comfort zones in a way that suggests that my problem is that I want to stay safe and warm with the fluffy bunnies - rather than that I am struggling to stay sane.  And that I am trying to step outside my comfort zones, and now it's harder to do that because Daphne was one of my coping mechanisms dammit!

The way I see, it, we don't just have the layers of web serial, fake tv show, and role-playing - we also have the layer of more transparency between us and the writers than we normally do. (er, than I normally do, in any case)  It's one thing for Suzanne Collins to make me cry for a bit, it's quite another for people I've spent time with to make me feel as badly as have since Tuesday.  Aside from pushing all my buttons in really bad ways, I also think a part of the issue is not just that the fourth wall is often absent, but that sometimes it feels like a game one is playing with friends, and the typical story turns can feel especially capricious and cruel if that's the mode of thinking one is in when they happen.

as always, ymmv

Oh!

Thank you for writing this. Very much.  I think I'm seeing more of your landscape now, as it were. (And I definitely can see where feeling as if people were expecting you to be grateful for feeling awful would be unbearable.)

Also, and you didn't say this exactly but I'm kind of riffing on the "comfort zones vs. staying sane thing," I know what it's like to have places I go that give me hope and copingness, and it's really really hard when those places turn into anti-copingness places for a while.

*ponders*

Probably we're not entirely making sense to each other when we discuss this big stuff -- and it is big stuff! --  because of different personal histories with beloved characters and their creation, too. I was in love with and involved with a writer for a long time who wrote some characters I really loved.  Somewhere along the way, the notion that Suzanne Collins or any other writer was unlikely to pop up randomly in my life (well, maybe she isn't the most likely, but it's possible) got thoroughly disinstalled.  (Well, it got disinstalled before then, probably, but that finished the job for sure.)  While I have a fourth wall when it comes to the fiction, I haven't got any kind of wall these days when it comes to writers, and it's been so long that I don't entirely remember what it feels like to think of writers as Other.

Instead, I wind up reading random net-people's comments on dear friends who have died, for example Robert Jordan, and having to remind myself that they don't actually think of him as a person, or they wouldn't be saying the things they said, particularly the week he died. It's kind of the flip side of what you're saying, maybe. Or another side of a dodecahedron. 

I want to say something, but my formulations of it come off sounding like I'm prescribing, rather than describing. I'm really not, but in discussing Big Stuff, the paths are perilous.  What I want to say, though, comes off something like: in some ways I don't trust writers at all, and yet I trust them to to do exactly what their muse leads them to do, and to try to do it their best, and I tend to read writers who love their characters and their audiences, and because of whom I have known and loved, I trust that there's gonna be death sometimes and suffering a bunch of times. ("Each bead on the string, and the cross too, if that's part of the deal.")  Stories are the places they and I go together to figure out the most complicated, the most important, the most incomprehensible things of life and death and love and memory.  It's a terrifying walk, sometimes.  And just because I trust them doesn't make it easy for me either. (I should put on a button that says "Ask my about my PTSD," but now's not the time.)  But I think my viewpoint is warped by sleeping with the sausage-makers, as it were, and making sausage myself sometimes, and that probably makes a lot of what I say sound somewhere between incomprehensible and callous to somebody with a different landscape in their viewer.

God, I hope I said that without being an asshole.

[Lioness]

Thank you for the kind thoughts and tea. Much appreciated. I'm shaken sometimes by how raw the grief can suddenly feel, months afterwards. But that's grief for you.

However, I didn't bring it up to switch the conversation to me - more to try to articulate that at first I thought I was underreacting, if anything. I didn't feel angry with the PTB and although I felt sad - both at the loss of Daphne and the loss of the interaction with her character - I didn't feel as bereft as other readers have done. And I assume that the other stuff in my life is why. In fact, if anything, Daphne's death being unexpected and unfair is bizarrely alright - that seems to mirror a lot of real life experiences.

Thank you. You said the thing I was afraid to say. That fits for me too.

I know it doesn't fit for other folks, but, um... there I was. As Sol says.

[tylik]

You and I were clearly destined* to meet, is all I can say. It does seem to have been a very roundabout of doing it, though, doesn't it?

Though perhaps not so surprisingly under the circumstances. I seem to recall you said something about being a bit less social during our overlap in Seattle, and for the last several years before I left I was pretty much all research and martial arts all the time and would only stick my head out and do something social once a quarter or so. A lot of the Seattle folks don't really see significantly less these days than they did before.

You know, Michael (he goes by Six now, mostly, for reasons that passeth my understanding) did the NK website, and is currently working on a webseries for which NK will serve as a location. I think one of his characters is going to be working for me, or something. His writing partner has dubbed the place Time Traveler Cheers, which means that I have achieved one of my life's ambitions: I have my very own Callahan's Place.

Well, yes, but, y'see... Glynis is the younger sister of my best friend, C, from my year in EEP. C and I had gotten out of touch - she'd kind of gotten out of touch with everyone - for years, but then one day she showed up at the martial arts school. And Glynis was studying wushu there, which was the first time I'd seen her since she was eleven or so, and was later in the same wushu class as me. (She about the same age as my younger sister, though I don't think she was still at the school by the time my sister started studying there.) So I was vaguely aware she was up to something like that, but only got around to checking out the Causality site after a bunch of other friends from EEP were mentioning it when I was out last winter when we all went out for dumplings at Din Tai Fung.

(That particular outing also featured... well, a lot of dear friends, including one from my year and one from Michael's year who actually got married and had a kid. Even more surprisingly, he's a great kid - I think the consensus was that this would involve concentrating lethal recessives and there was no way they'd get anything viable without intervention. Not that we can prove no such intervention occurred.)

*For values to destiny which include inevitability, but not preplanning on the part of any particular entity.

Currents, not drivers. *nods*