Bored with the old new content topic...

[MadGastronomer]

I don't know about the whys. I suspect that, like most things in life, there's a lot of reasons behind it. He doesn't want to pas on The Relative's DNA, he doesn't want to abandon a kid by dying young, he doesn't think he'd make a good parent (he's still upset about losing Elmer, I think, or was for quite a while; he doesn't seem to trust himself with anything living), he's afraid of new strange genetic stuff happening, he doesn't want to accidentally subject a kid to the mirror, he thinks that with his past it might be too easy for him to become an abuser.... I don't know. But I know that he doesn't want kids, or want other people's kids named for him. Which was my point, to state the things I DO know.

I should go to bed now. My head and belly are full of story and my life is getting a little too metafictional, and I'm really tired. (I blame Cat Valente for some of those things.)

*wanders off, muttering about badgers and mushrooms*

[DavidG]

Chaz doesn't want kids. He had a vasectomy very much on purpose.

Agreed, that's why the comment about medical intervention. OTOH, people do sometimes change their minds about having and not having kids, even when faced with the sort of issues Chaz is facing, so we can note the difficulties and decisions already made while still discussing the theoretical possibilities. I don't personally see Chaz choosing to have children with the situation he currently faces, but if the Anomaly is laid to rest and a long term solution turns up for his metabolic issues then is he still going to think the same way ten years from now?

[DavidG]

...is the Beta "genetic damage" inheritable?

If it's referred to as genetic then I think we have to assume so. (And keeping those Beta genes in the genepool is actually a viable argument for why Chaz should have children!).

And moving onto a completely different topic, I loved the way that once one person starts noodling around with music everyone else pulls instruments and talent from unexpected places and just joins in. Food, music and good company, what more can a party want.

[MadGastronomer]

I don't personally see Chaz choosing to have children with the situation he currently faces, but if the Anomaly is laid to rest and a long term solution turns up for his metabolic issues then is he still going to think the same way ten years from now?

I really don't think the anomaly is something that CAN be laid to rest. Even assuming they can figure out some way to prevent more people from becoming affected, even assuming they come up with a treatment that works on some gammas, it's not going to work on everybody, and even if it had a chance of working on Chaz, he might very well not want to give it up. He has always had anomabilities, it's probably part of his self-identification. My bipolar is part of mine, and while I'm certainly willing to treat it, if somebody offered me a cure tomorrow, I'd say no thank you. How much more so would it be for a difference that's actually useful?

And since I do think it's very likely that one of his reasons for not wanting kids is not wanting to continue his family line -- and probably not just genetically speaking, either, he's got some really heavy issues about family -- I really doubt he would. But given the whole of his genetic heritage, he's really not ever going to want to have biological children. And, frankly, I'm kind of irritated by the suggestion. Just because his decision not to have children isn't motivated by not liking them doesn't mean he'd change his mind if some parts of his situation were different. It sounds very much like the reasoning behind doctors denying vasectomies and tubal ligations to people in their twenties (which, yes, does happen), because "they might change their minds later."

If it's referred to as genetic then I think we have to assume so. (And keeping those Beta genes in the genepool is actually a viable argument for why Chaz should have children!).

No, not it is not. It's a totally crap argument that someone might use in an attempt to pressure him into biologically fathering children, but it is not a good argument. Not when he has already decided not to. It is his decision.

It is an even less viable argument because a) he is not the only carrier, and b) they know what causes that specific damage, and how to find it.

I totally should have gone to sleep when I went to bed. I suddenly find myself defending the Child-Free movement. I mean, I totally support their reproductive choices, but I have found so many of them to act so obnoxious...

Seriously, though, criticizing and detracting from the reproductive choices of another person, especially a friend of mine, even if he is fictional, does rather push some buttons. Reproductive choices belong solely to the individual concerned, and other people should butt out. Norming one choice over another, or behaving as if an individual's body or genetic material is public property, is not ok with me.

[eschatonic]

I don't know about the whys. I suspect that, like most things in life, there's a lot of reasons behind it. He doesn't want to pas on The Relative's DNA, he doesn't want to abandon a kid by dying young, he doesn't think he'd make a good parent (he's still upset about losing Elmer, I think, or was for quite a while; he doesn't seem to trust himself with anything living), he's afraid of new strange genetic stuff happening, he doesn't want to accidentally subject a kid to the mirror, he thinks that with his past it might be too easy for him to become an abuser.... I don't know. But I know that he doesn't want kids, or want other people's kids named for him. Which was my point, to state the things I DO know.

I don't know when you had the conversation with him about not naming stuff after him, but is it possible this was at a time when he was feeling pretty depressed? About Hafidha, PTSD, failure to save that last kid in Natchez, etc? Because I totally understand that he has major family issues at the best of times, but ... he does like kids. And I can easily see that when he is feeling bad about himself that would be a particularly touchy topic. But I suspect that if he was generally feeling more self-confident and secure and happy, and/or if he gets married, you might get a different answer.

Alternatively, having killed his shoggoth by accidentally starving it to death while he was being starved on purpose, he might have extra issues attached to the shoggoth thing and not want you to name something after him that people do occasionally forget about and kill by neglect.

ETA: Also, some people just don't want pets/non-human objects named after them, and find it insulting.

[Elizabeth Bear]

Chaz doesn't want kids. He had a vasectomy very much on purpose. He doesn't even want other people's kids named after him -- he told me so once, when he first sent me a shoggoth and I asked if I might name it after him.

I disagree. Chaz very much wants kids. (See his first Livejournal Down The Rabbit Hole Day post, and "Smoke and Mirrors," among other places.)

He feels it would be horribly irresponsible to have them, though. Which is not the same thing as not wanting.

There are all sorts of things that I want very much that I have made the decision not to have, over the years. It doesn't always help with the wanting, though. In some cases, it makes it worse.

[Elizabeth Bear]

Chaz doesn't want kids. He had a vasectomy very much on purpose. He doesn't even want other people's kids named after him -- he told me so once, when he first sent me a shoggoth and I asked if I might name it after him.

Huh. I thought he did that just because he really, really, really, about-8-more-reallys did not want to propagate the Relative's DNA.

This is my understanding, yeah.

[Elizabeth Bear]

I don't personally see Chaz choosing to have children with the situation he currently faces, but if the Anomaly is laid to rest and a long term solution turns up for his metabolic issues then is he still going to think the same way ten years from now?

I really don't think the anomaly is something that CAN be laid to rest. Even assuming they can figure out some way to prevent more people from becoming affected, even assuming they come up with a treatment that works on some gammas, it's not going to work on everybody, and even if it had a chance of working on Chaz, he might very well not want to give it up. He has always had anomabilities, it's probably part of his self-identification. My bipolar is part of mine, and while I'm certainly willing to treat it, if somebody offered me a cure tomorrow, I'd say no thank you. How much more so would it be for a difference that's actually useful?

And since I do think it's very likely that one of his reasons for not wanting kids is not wanting to continue his family line -- and probably not just genetically speaking, either, he's got some really heavy issues about family -- I really doubt he would. But given the whole of his genetic heritage, he's really not ever going to want to have biological children. And, frankly, I'm kind of irritated by the suggestion. Just because his decision not to have children isn't motivated by not liking them doesn't mean he'd change his mind if some parts of his situation were different. It sounds very much like the reasoning behind doctors denying vasectomies and tubal ligations to people in their twenties (which, yes, does happen), because "they might change their minds later."

If it's referred to as genetic then I think we have to assume so. (And keeping those Beta genes in the genepool is actually a viable argument for why Chaz should have children!).

No, not it is not. It's a totally crap argument that someone might use in an attempt to pressure him into biologically fathering children, but it is not a good argument. Not when he has already decided not to. It is his decision.

It is an even less viable argument because a) he is not the only carrier, and b) they know what causes that specific damage, and how to find it.

I totally should have gone to sleep when I went to bed. I suddenly find myself defending the Child-Free movement. I mean, I totally support their reproductive choices, but I have found so many of them to act so obnoxious...

Seriously, though, criticizing and detracting from the reproductive choices of another person, especially a friend of mine, even if he is fictional, does rather push some buttons. Reproductive choices belong solely to the individual concerned, and other people should butt out. Norming one choice over another, or behaving as if an individual's body or genetic material is public property, is not ok with me.

MG? I think you might be getting a little triggery and invested, and now might be a good time to take a couple of deep breaths and not try so hard to control/ shut down the conversation, okay?

--Bear in a moderator hat

[Felicia1066]

Okay, that was seriously, seriously cute. (I almost didn't read it because I wasn't sure I was up to something painful right now, but this was perfect.) Special love for the belly dancing Falkner girls, and Lau beating Chaz at badminton despite the height difference.

Of more immediate personal concern, Coffeeem's intro over on LJ called this the 3rd WTF BBQ, and the only one I can remember is the first. Looking at the reading order page isn't helping, someone put me out of my misery with a pointer, please!

The middle one was only mentioned in LJs - here's the first post that comes to mind.

[Alena]

...personally, I think it's weirder that there are two out (at least to themselves, the team, their families...) queer SU team members with long-term (can we call Gray that yet?) partners than that only one of the team members has kids.  *g*  Also, that the team member with kids is a woman; except for CM you don't see that much in the media. 

Although I guess Reyes could have had kids, and Vivian just has full custody.  Though you'd think he would've mentioned child support payments.

[DavidG]

Seriously, though, criticizing and detracting from the reproductive choices of another person, especially a friend of mine, even if he is fictional, does rather push some buttons.

MG, sorry if I accidentally pushed buttons. I've absolutely no problem with people opting not to have children; I don't have any myself, though that's circumstances rather than choice. I've been thinking about eugenics after a recent post elsewhere from someone actively advocating for a fertility technique that allows selecting disability-free embryos, which, as someone with, probably, two genetically linked disabilities, I'm less than comfortable with and that influenced my point. Chaz is the one known surviving Beta geneset*, as a scientist, as a strategist, there is value in retaining access to that. That that conflicts with Chaz's decision not to have kids concerns me as a matter of individual rights, but in a world facing the Anomaly, Chaz is a weapon, not simply an individual and the good guys need to consider every angle. I can look at something from two different angles and hold differing opinions depending on whether I'm wearing the friend hat or the strategist hat. Is El Jefe's thinking likely to be all that different?

* Hope Mitchell is dead and burned, Hafs turned out not to be a true Beta, forgetmegirl has been forgotten.

[DavidG]

The middle one was only mentioned in LJs - here's the first post that comes to mind.

Thanks, Ed already pointed me at it on LJ, but it's definitely worth following up that link because it's another great BBQ tale, though with less en masse cuteness and more solo Daphs being so cutely awkward with her foot wedged firmly in her mouth.

[tylik]

Although I guess Reyes could have had kids, and Vivian just has full custody.  Though you'd think he would've mentioned child support payments.

Because Reyes is just all with the mentioning personal details? Now, mind, he also tries to ride herd on an office of profilers, so it would be some work to keep that cat in the bag...

[tylik]

There are all sorts of things that I want very much that I have made the decision not to have, over the years. It doesn't always help with the wanting, though. In some cases, it makes it worse.

Yeah. This.

[HebrewRose]

Chaz doesn't want kids. He had a vasectomy very much on purpose. He doesn't even want other people's kids named after him -- he told me so once, when he first sent me a shoggoth and I asked if I might name it after him.

Huh. I thought he did that just because he really, really, really, about-8-more-reallys did not want to propagate the Relative's DNA.

This is my understanding, yeah.

I had the same understanding, but I also saw Chaz's gut reaction to finding out he had a gamma Relative being "OK, it's genetic." Or at least that the chances of passing the Anomaly on to his kids were now high enough that he should give up on having biological children. In other words, it wasn't just the Relative's genes, but any anomalous genes.

Although I guess Reyes could have had kids, and Vivian just has full custody.  Though you'd think he would've mentioned child support payments.

Because Reyes is just all with the mentioning personal details? Now, mind, he also tries to ride herd on an office of profilers, so it would be some work to keep that cat in the bag...

I believe Reyes has mentioned (in PoV, not dialogue) that his first wife lives with her husband and children from that marriage, in such a way that he probably would have mentioned his own children living there too.